GMBC ep029 - Exploring a Post-Apocalyptic Tabletop: A Journey Through Sterling Lanier's Classic - Heiro's Journey
Sterling E. Lainer
Heiro’s Journey
Speaker A
00:00:09.600 - 00:00:11.280
Welcome to the Game Masters Book Club
Speaker B
00:00:11.280 - 00:00:13.080
where great fiction becomes your next great
Speaker A
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tabletop role playing experience. It is the world of the future
Speaker B
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thousands of years after the great death.
Speaker A
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But artifacts from the past may be
Speaker B
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the key to the future.
Scott Legault, Chris Grannis and David Clarkson are our game master guides to this future world of psionics, clones and absolutely nothing to do with Zardos. It's Stern erling E. Lehner's 1973 science fiction classic, Hero's Journey. Let's get into the conversation.
All right folks, welcome to another episode of the Game Masters Book Club. And this week we're going to be talking about a true classic of the sci fi and fantasy field, Hero's Journey by Sterling Lanier.
I am joined again by three amazing game masters and I'm going to have them introduce themselves to you. Hero's Journey takes place in a post apocalyptic landscape very similar to and perhaps one that directly inspired Gamma World.
So I thought I'd have our GMs tell them introduce themselves and tell you about their favorite Gamma World mutation. So I'm going to start off with you, Chris.
Chris, would you mind telling the folks who you are a little bit about your game and self and a little bit about your favorite mutant power from Gamma World.
Speaker C
00:01:23.320 - 00:01:42.500
Sure thing. Hi, I'm Chris Grannis. I have been gaming for oh my gosh more than 40 years.
Started off with the original D and D way back in the four times though I am a second generation gamer which is always fun to say. My mom played the original white box D and D. So there we go.
Speaker B
00:01:42.900 - 00:01:44.260
Shout out to Chris's mom.
Speaker C
00:01:44.340 - 00:02:08.030
Shout out to mom. My favorite mutation from Gamma World, quite frankly, they're all great. By all great I mean I'd take any of them.
This pretty cool extra limbs is probably the coolest there but objectively the best, best one would be telekinesis for the mental mutations. So gna go there and just so you know, I did random roll as well and I got poison touch. I. I'd take it I guess.
Speaker B
00:02:09.390 - 00:02:17.390
Hey, maybe it could be like a super cool, like a super cool anti cancer poison chemotherapy kind of poison. That would be kind of.
Speaker C
00:02:17.390 - 00:02:23.110
It could, it could or just you know slip a handshake in there for you know, certain people.
Speaker B
00:02:23.110 - 00:02:28.430
There you go. Also true. Dave, would you mind introducing yourself and telling folks about your favorite mutant power?
Speaker D
00:02:28.590 - 00:03:03.530
I will do that. Thank you Eric. My name is David Clarkson.
I also have been gaming for nigh 40 plus years since I encountered a second edition D& D and got to Play in a gnome illusionist that the gm who later became my friend but at the time gave me a golem figure and said, that's a gnome. And I looked at it and said, that doesn't look very gnomish. But I took it anyways. And I've learned differently since then. Going back to Gamma World.
My favorite mutation when I generated a Gamma World character was Dual Brain. Because I could sleep and get stuff done at the same time. Time and have extra psionic powers. Two brains in your head.
Speaker B
00:03:03.530 - 00:03:11.610
Isn't that the dream to be able to sleep and get work done at the same time? What could be better than that? Scott, you want to introduce yourself and tell the folks about your favorite Gamma World mutant power?
Speaker E
00:03:11.610 - 00:03:48.680
Hey, everybody, My name is Scott Legal. I, at the oldest of this group have been gaming for a little bit longer than them. Not quite 50 years, but pretty close.
I played the original Gamma World. I played the original Dungeons and Dragons. When I first started playing with my older brother from college, I was a dwarf. First edition dwarf.
And I think I died three times. The first night and we killed a dragon. And that was it. I was hooked. And that was a long time ago.
As the Gamma World, I would probably say my favorite mutant power would be sentient animals. I think that's pretty cool, having sentient animals to be different characters. So.
Speaker B
00:03:48.680 - 00:03:53.560
So yeah, you're going to be the. You're. You're going to take the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle route is what I'm hearing.
Speaker E
00:03:53.950 - 00:03:57.150
Yeah, you're probably more like a bear or a lion, but yeah.
Speaker B
00:03:57.550 - 00:04:28.430
Oh, that's definitely going to come into play when we start talking about the book. My name's Eric Jackson and I think I'm as close to Scott as anybody gets here.
I've been playing since the Pleistocene, so that puts me in definitely old guy territory. But my favorite mutant power, I actually went through, like, Chris and I just was like, yes, all of these are awesome. And I'm going to roll.
My favorite mutant power was definitely the one that I rolled first, which was berries that you could produce berries with various toxins. I was like, okay, that wins.
Speaker C
00:04:28.670 - 00:04:29.310
I'm good.
Speaker B
00:04:29.790 - 00:04:36.190
I could produce random berries from my body and give them to people and they. Can you be poisoned or they could give you magic powers.
Speaker E
00:04:36.190 - 00:04:38.830
Who knows how you produce them is the question that.
Speaker B
00:04:38.830 - 00:04:43.310
That is a really good question. All right.
Speaker E
00:04:43.950 - 00:04:46.910
Yeah, now we just right into DCC there.
Speaker B
00:04:46.910 - 00:04:48.670
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say that.
Speaker C
00:04:48.670 - 00:04:50.150
That's for book Club After Dark.
Speaker B
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Book Club After Dark. Anywho, all of this is to set the scene for our book for this week, which is Hero's Journey, as I said, by Sterling Lanier.
For those of you who don't know Sterling Lanier, if that's not a name that rings in your mind, not only was he an author and apparently a sculptor who had his work exhibited in the Smithsonian, but perhaps his most greatest claim to fame is that he's an editor for a publisher called Chilton and he bought a little book that nobody else wanted and it was called Dune and he was the editor of Dune. So those are his bonafiti.
Speaker E
00:05:26.120 - 00:05:32.720
Can I add something there? He actually lost his job at Chilton because the first time they published it, it didn't do well.
Speaker B
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It was like, oh, it's a terrible book. Sterling, you're out.
Speaker E
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He took one for the team.
Speaker B
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We owed Sterling quite a bit here, but I'm going to talk a little bit about his work, which is the Hero's Journey, which is set in a world ravaged by nuclear exchange with radioactive wastelands and strange mutated beasts, a decimated human population. Some of those mutated beasts are gigantic, some strange, some with human like intelligence. This backdrop we get our adventuring party, as it were.
Hero, a priest, his intelligent moose or Morse, whose name is Kloots, a young intelligent bear. There's Scott's intelligent bear named Gorm and Lucre, a captive young woman who they rescue who turns out to be a princess.
Our party is beset by tribes, beasts and other dangerous environments. But their real foes are the Unclean, a death cult that seeks to control all life or destroy it.
Both the Unclean and heroes party seek a piece of ancient technology, a computer whose existence was recently uncovered. As they raced towards the mysterious MacGuffin, a romance occurs between the two humans. They also encounter a giant mutant fungus.
They discover that their adversary is in fact clones of each other. It's crazy.
Themes of environmentalism, animal rights and the centering of non white characters as protagonists is very impressive, especially given this book's 1973 publication date. But the story also retains the straightforward plots and black and white morality of early sci fi and fantasy.
So Scott, this book was one of your favorites. What other themes do you think the GMs at home need to know about it?
Speaker E
00:07:24.920 - 00:08:01.590
It's definitely a good versus evil overall kind of series. There are actually two books. There was supposed to be three, but he died before the third one came out.
But it is definitely Star wars is good versus evil. It's good versus evil. There is the.
It's a cautionary Tale, I believe even though they're all searching for remnants of the past computers to use to empower themselves, there is the cautionary tale of what is the cost of that. The humans in the world are pretty decimated. There's like little groups in what was left of North America. That was where it takes place.
I think it asks the reader to say, is this worth it?
Speaker C
00:08:01.590 - 00:08:03.310
And they also have the. The Eleveners.
Speaker E
00:08:03.310 - 00:08:03.670
Yes.
Speaker C
00:08:03.670 - 00:08:08.230
Which joined the eleventh commandment, thou shalt not destroy the earth or the life thereon.
Speaker E
00:08:08.230 - 00:08:10.950
They try to be neutral. Yes, they try to be neutral.
Speaker C
00:08:10.950 - 00:08:14.480
Yeah. Which luckily they're not very good at because, you know, they're definitely needed.
Speaker E
00:08:15.200 - 00:08:19.360
They lean towards keeping the most of the people that are left alive.
Speaker B
00:08:19.360 - 00:08:30.720
Didn't the Leaveners feel a little like. Like Baron, like this sort of like separate, really powerful thing that was sitting on the outside and. Or the Ents? This sort of separate power?
Speaker C
00:08:30.960 - 00:08:32.200
Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker E
00:08:32.200 - 00:08:44.790
Well, they definitely came across as Druidic, so there's a. Definitely, like the tie in to nature was really big with them. So yeah, it's. They do come across a little like the Ents.
Like, you know, that's not our problem until you stick us with it.
Speaker C
00:08:44.790 - 00:08:53.470
But they also served as the mentor role. They had the, you know, the wise advising and sending forth kind of thing and putting the heroes together.
Speaker E
00:08:53.630 - 00:09:04.510
Yeah, but you don't realize that until later in the book that the Eleveners are actually a bigger part of controlling the priesthood. Not so much controlling, but, you know, recommending. So.
Speaker D
00:09:04.590 - 00:09:22.940
Yeah, yeah. And I think they also provided some hope.
Yes, some hope that there was a way out of a way to civilize without having to fall into the hands of the unclean ones. And because they were utilizing technology, whereas others were not so much.
Whereas the Eleveners showed that there's another way to rebuild the world.
Speaker E
00:09:23.020 - 00:09:37.580
Right. Because the unclean were using the technology they had found, but he'd using it to create other races of servant creatures.
And then there's the mental power thing, which really is what comes from this book that fell directly into first edition
Speaker C
00:09:37.580 - 00:09:45.320
D and D. I gotta say, hats off to Sterling for predicting that, you know, the Internet would be the downfall of civilization, even back before it was created.
Speaker B
00:09:45.400 - 00:09:57.720
See here, I thought you were going to congratulate him for making Appendix N in the dmg Right there I was like, oh, that's you. Congratulations on making Appendix N and predicting the end of the world. Good job.
Speaker C
00:09:58.200 - 00:09:59.000
Yes, yes.
Speaker E
00:09:59.000 - 00:10:24.510
But if you look at that, they really. Appendix N, first edition D and D really kind of did Take the system, that system, you want to call it System.
The system that was written here, although it wasn't a mechanic, and took it almost directly into first edition D&D. Yeah. It's only once its second edition came around that they mangled it.
But before that, a lot of it, word for word, pretty straightforward, like, hey, all these ideas are good, we're going to use them.
Speaker B
00:10:24.510 - 00:10:32.750
Yeah, agreed, Chris.
They do take some of the psionic capabilities and turn them right around and just drop them right into this book and drop them right into first Edition, which.
Speaker C
00:10:32.750 - 00:10:36.150
Which is unfortunate because it really doesn't work in First Edition.
Speaker B
00:10:36.390 - 00:10:39.030
Yeah, well, yeah, but the thing we
Speaker E
00:10:39.030 - 00:10:47.190
were talking about, psionic abilities in them not working on people that don't have psychotics, that came right out of this.
Speaker C
00:10:47.590 - 00:10:51.350
So which unless, you know you fight a lot of mind flayers, isn't all that useful.
Speaker B
00:10:51.430 - 00:11:23.120
The one strange side note, my very first character, the first character that I played with any consistency, which was Exor the Paladin, he had a very limited psionic ability. So he was kind of like.
He very much had a Superman kind of thing where it was like, I'm pretty good at doing all this defending stuff, but if anybody figures out that some of the tricks I can do are psionic, he was like easy to defeat because he didn't have a lot of skill, he just had like a minor ability, but he could be affected by it. So that was my earliest character.
Speaker D
00:11:23.120 - 00:11:31.320
Ah, that's cool. Yeah. I always loved the psionic rules and wanted to play more with them, but of course they gatekeeped them quite a bit in second edition.
Speaker C
00:11:31.320 - 00:11:46.230
First edition, there was a literally like between a 1 and 9% chance if you maxed out all your skills of having planic abilities. And as everyone who has played first edition when there were 12 knows, that's almost guaranteed that you have.
Speaker B
00:11:46.230 - 00:12:05.780
Yeah, everybody has that. Yeah. We've already sort of crept our way close the mechanics subject here, so why don't we go all the way and jump right into that?
Dave, can you tell the folks if they've read Hero's Journey and they want to run something just like it, what system do you think would best evoke the Hero's Journey?
Speaker D
00:12:05.850 - 00:13:30.150
Oh, what system?
Well, of course I'm going to go to my favorite and I've been musing over this because of course the obvious Mutant Crawl Classics, part of the Dungeon Crawl Classics line comes to mind. It's clearly got the DNA of Gamma World directly in it. And it's intentional.
There's no make no bones about it in the introduction to the book, so they're really trying to emulate that feel of it. But the one problem with Mutant Crawl Classics is this whimsical. Got some randomness in it, but.
But digging through my archives, I did find one of my friends in dcc, Tim Callahan, did publish a fanzine and put some rules together for DCC called Crawl Jammer. And they're basically meant to emulate Belljammer, but they also can be ported right into any DCC product.
And he has a psychic knight, which would absolutely be perfect for Hiro.
So, long story short, I would definitely want to use my favorite mcc, but I'd want to have the ability for a character like Hero to have some reliable abilities that you could count on so he could go into battle and know I can do these things. And most of the time they're going to work well unless my opponent is. Is tougher. And he really did try to emulate the.
Tim Callahan did really try to emulate the Psionics system from old D D, just like Chris was talking about where psionics work best. When you've got two psionic masters facing each other off, and untrained people really don't have a part to play in all of that.
So that would be my first start.
Speaker B
00:13:30.150 - 00:13:32.030
That's a fantastic resource. Thank you.
Speaker E
00:13:32.270 - 00:13:32.510
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:13:32.510 - 00:13:34.830
Nice job, Dave Scott, do you want to continue on?
Speaker E
00:13:35.550 - 00:13:39.630
I think I would pick. Well, obviously Gamma World, but we can't. Right? We've agreed not to.
Speaker C
00:13:39.630 - 00:13:39.870
Right.
Speaker B
00:13:39.870 - 00:13:46.350
In the first pages of Gamma World, it's basically like we took all this from Sterling Lanier, so it seems like the obvious choice.
Speaker E
00:13:46.510 - 00:14:19.670
So I would say I tried Mutant Year Zero, vaguely newer rpg, maybe about four or five years old now. It's very similar to Apocalypse World. I think that would probably be my pick. I actually get a chance to play it a couple times.
You know, there are sentient animals in it. Characters can play different animals as sentient creatures, bipeds and things like that.
So I think that I would try, if I was going to take it kind of directly as the story and like, you know, drop the environment, everything into a game, I think I would try that.
Speaker B
00:14:19.670 - 00:14:22.350
Chris, you want to continue on with the conversation here?
Speaker C
00:14:22.510 - 00:15:36.570
Sure, yeah. I mean, obviously Gamma World, duh. But I would enjoy.
And it would require some heavy modification, my friends, but I would enjoy adapting the One Ring to it. Reasoning being here is that the One Ring does hex crawls and journeys better than most games that I have seen.
And one of the things that I'VE really intrigued me about the game, the game, about the book is that it felt like an old school hex crawl. And by that I mean, you know, the adventure that they were on was an exploratory one.
They were, you know, going from place to place and things were different in each spot as they were going through. And they had to deal with all of the challenges the same way you would in a game. I like the One Rings methodology of the journeys.
You plot out your journey and then you. You basically go forth and how you deal with that journey phase, obviously you'd have to adapt the classes to.
And the races to be more post apocalyptics, but it, it does support fiddling with. So that would be what I would go.
Speaker E
00:15:36.650 - 00:15:39.690
It's almost like each session was a chapter in the book.
Speaker D
00:15:39.690 - 00:15:40.890
Yeah, no, I back that up.
Speaker E
00:15:41.450 - 00:15:42.850
Yeah, so that's. That's kind of cool.
Speaker D
00:15:42.850 - 00:15:53.360
Yeah. Oh, it definitely tracks and back Chris up. I've played his game with one ring and yeah, it's an amazing system where they really do make.
The choices you make along the way matter quite a bit.
Speaker C
00:15:53.440 - 00:16:09.120
And it is a narrative journey too.
So, you know, the adventure bit, when you get there, it's like, okay, now we're fighting and fighting such, but as you're going through there, it's like the. I saw something horrifying by the road. What is it? Yeah, that sort of thing. I love the. Love the question and answer type thing.
Speaker B
00:16:09.280 - 00:16:22.910
So there's this really cool supplement that I picked up, I think about two years ago. It's called the Ultraviolet Grasslands and the Black City psychedelic metal role playing. So I, I wasn't thinking in terms of.
Speaker E
00:16:22.910 - 00:16:24.430
Yeah, that could definitely.
Speaker C
00:16:24.510 - 00:16:25.030
All right.
Speaker D
00:16:25.030 - 00:16:25.470
Wow.
Speaker B
00:16:26.030 - 00:16:36.670
Yeah, I wasn't thinking in terms of a Hex Crawl. But if you wanted to supplement Chris's Hex Crawl, this is the book you would like smoosh together with the one ring to get your setting.
Speaker C
00:16:36.910 - 00:16:38.230
So when you're running that for us,
Speaker B
00:16:38.230 - 00:18:00.370
Eric, what am I running it? The last time I recorded, not with you guys, I got asked the same question when I came up with a brilliant idea like that.
I just have a bunch of campaigns I need to run here. To be fair though, I probably wouldn't pick the Ultraviolet Grasslands as my primary pick.
I think Darwin's World by Dominic Covey is the way I would go. I would probably choose the second edition, which is the D20 version. Although no problem if you like the Savage World edition version.
So whichever one is your favorite, you can do that. I like how that game focuses on the Genetic mutations and also has a real solid faction building section for the game master.
So this has obviously we've got the unclean and then we've got the Eleveners. And so that seemed like it fit this really well. It includes scavenging rules, which is crucial to building up your characters.
Almost as important as it would be to collect magic items in D and D. It is very focused on sci fi. So there's no magical Thundar, like no Ariel the Sorceress can, you know, and that sort of thing.
And the one thing I don't like about the basic rules and I haven't had a chance to check, no robots.
I mean, I know there are no robots in the book, but if I'm going to play a post apocalyptic sci fi, eventually I'm going to need a crazy robot to fight.
Speaker E
00:18:00.450 - 00:18:05.400
You could make a case for the unclean being some kind of sense.
Speaker B
00:18:05.640 - 00:18:09.040
And they're making this mutating the other races and doing that other stuff.
Speaker C
00:18:09.040 - 00:18:09.280
So.
Speaker B
00:18:09.280 - 00:18:19.480
Yeah, but I would say Darwin's world or the One Ring and the ultraviolet grasslands and the Black City. Psychedelic metal role playing. Because it's fun to say that.
Speaker E
00:18:19.560 - 00:18:32.300
Yeah, you did mention. I do want to bring up. We talked earlier when we were hashing over the book about Thunder the Barbarian, which you could also throw it.
There's a lot less magic in this book.
Speaker B
00:18:32.460 - 00:18:35.180
So this is a pretty straight sci fi book.
Speaker E
00:18:35.260 - 00:18:41.500
You wanted to add magic. You could easily pull thunder or anything from that realm in as well.
Speaker C
00:18:41.580 - 00:18:54.180
But I gotta say, you know, there's no magic, but there's psionics. And quite frankly, they are functionally the same. In a role playing game. You can just say, hey, all of my spells are actually psionic powers.
Speaker B
00:18:54.180 - 00:19:18.250
And boom, you're surprise. Now we've got our magic.
We're already going down the road of stuff we'd like from this book that we think is portable, that we'd like to bring into our own role playing games. So Scott, why don't you lead off, start with one, because I know you have more than one. I promise you can do cleanup as well if we miss anything.
What's your favorite thing that you'd want to steal from this book and drop into your own game?
Speaker E
00:19:18.250 - 00:19:46.070
Oh boy. I love the environment. I do like the giant behemoth frog creatures, the giant fungus, the intelligent fungus. I love that weird science part of it.
That's like the post apocalyptic stuff that, you know, only thing these things only came out because, you know, we blew up the world. I love that part of it. So I'd probably take the environment first and running a campaign in it would be fun.
Speaker B
00:19:46.150 - 00:19:49.790
Dave, what is your favorite portable piece from Hero's Journey?
Speaker D
00:19:49.790 - 00:20:39.720
Oh, there's a lot of things in there, of course, that others will bring up. But one of the things that I really liked about Sterling's book was the way that he would describe the old technology.
He did a good job of making it familiar and mysterious at the same time, which has often been a challenge. Running post apocalyptic role playing him.
It's so easy to say it looks like a microwave and everybody at the table knows what you're talking about, but that's not really the goal. You want them to go this weird mysterious thing that I have a vague feeling about, but you know, it still is unfamiliar and strange.
And he did a good job of describing the antenna thing that they use for psychic stuff and the machine that they use to try to probe his mind. All those things were really interesting descriptions.
So I would steal some of that stuff right out of it so that I could do a better job at my role playing game table.
Speaker B
00:20:39.720 - 00:21:09.980
But I once befuddled an entire party trying to get them into a post apocalyptic Disney world when they couldn't figure out how to use the coin tokens to go through the turnstile because I just, I wouldn't tell them it was a turnstile. I described it and they just were like, well, well, okay, if I push on it, what happens if I pull?
So yes, not quite a door, but defeated by a door is, you know, pretty common in gaming.
Speaker E
00:21:09.980 - 00:21:11.180
But that's awesome.
Speaker B
00:21:11.180 - 00:21:14.120
Yeah, these metal posts, it's just such a puzzle.
Speaker D
00:21:14.120 - 00:21:15.760
Can't get past these metal posts.
Speaker B
00:21:15.760 - 00:21:20.640
And then when they were all done, when they finally figured it out, they were like, it's a torrent stuff. Yeah.
Speaker D
00:21:20.720 - 00:21:21.080
Yes.
Speaker B
00:21:21.080 - 00:21:25.000
Chris, what would you want to port over from the Hero's Journey?
Speaker C
00:21:25.000 - 00:21:56.720
I really liked the. The Clone Wizards or the Clone Psionics. The, the unclean. They're good bad guys because it's the same guy.
They were a great bad guy and they appealed to me on a couple of levels. First of all, there's always the danger of the PCs killing off your big bad too early if you want to introduce him.
And you know, you want to get the big bad in there, but you also want, you don't want to kill off the characters and you don't want to have him killed off too fast. So if you have clones of the same guy, problem solved.
Speaker B
00:21:57.040 - 00:22:00.560
Kill that guy all the time. He's back again.
Speaker E
00:22:00.640 - 00:22:01.360
He's back.
Speaker C
00:22:01.360 - 00:22:18.590
He's Back, so. And also, you know, for the lazy GM in me, it's like, oh, I just have to deal with one. One voice and one, you know, music cue. If I can do that.
I like the clone wizard thing. The. Oh, they're all connected, but in same guy. But it's not the same guy.
Speaker B
00:22:18.670 - 00:22:22.270
Cue the theremin and use the nasally voice and you're all set.
Speaker C
00:22:22.510 - 00:22:23.310
Exactly.
Speaker B
00:22:24.030 - 00:22:59.430
I promise I will let everybody say more if they want, but I just want to put in that I love the Morse. Anytime you can give me a weird, crazy mount, I'm going to be excited.
And especially this channel giant monster of a moose mount that you could have there. That was fantastic. Kloots is my. I am Team Kloots all the way. He's fantastic. And the whole thing reminded me also of.
I'm going to throw in a quick book suggestion here. There's a book by Annalee Newitz called the Terraformers and they have flying moose in that world. They're a little bit more like.
Speaker E
00:22:59.430 - 00:23:00.510
That sounds horrible.
Speaker B
00:23:01.230 - 00:23:31.630
It's fantastic. They're also hyper intelligent and peaceful. So you're okay. Don't worry, you're not going to die.
But as the name the Terraformers implies, that book is also sort of a. Instead of rebuilding a world, it's the building of a world. So it has a lot of the same feeling.
And they use the moose to get around to a lot of different places. So that's my. You know, again, that's what it reminded me of instantaneously. And I was like, yes. More moose riding envy. Scott, go ahead.
I know you got more you want to throw in.
Speaker C
00:23:31.630 - 00:23:32.070
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:23:32.310 - 00:24:10.270
So I love the fact that they allude. This is definitely like this. This world. He's carrying a weapon from the Second World War.
He's got like a bolo knife that's been passed down through generations. That he has a thrower. He has basically a form of a gun. It fires little rockets.
You know, they're hideously expensive to make and he's only got so many and they can actually take out a large creature. But then, you know, of course, in the course of the get of the book, he loses it. Right.
I. I love the fact that they pull in stuff to make you realize that it is this. There's a bunch of stuff like that that just like.
Speaker C
00:24:10.270 - 00:24:11.110
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:24:11.110 - 00:24:15.070
This is one of the first real. The trope of the ruined Earth.
Speaker E
00:24:15.070 - 00:24:16.190
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:24:16.190 - 00:24:21.870
This is actually. I was doing some research. This is one of the earlier versions of that trope.
Speaker E
00:24:21.870 - 00:24:30.960
Yeah. No, and it Works because when you hear stuff like on his sword, it says us like 1911 or something like that. Which is on an old weapon.
Speaker C
00:24:30.960 - 00:24:31.320
Right.
Speaker E
00:24:31.400 - 00:24:46.040
So kind of cool. And you know, there is still some places like, like the priesthood, they don't practice celibacy, but down south they do.
You know, there's all this stuff that's left over from years eons before. Right.
Speaker C
00:24:46.120 - 00:25:05.580
Very far in the future. That. Yeah, that's one of the things that eons that kind of bugged me, that so far in the future.
But that just, you know, sort of took me out of some of it because it's like, oh, well, 5,000 years from now. Still a little too. Too much still around, I guess for my taste.
Speaker B
00:25:05.580 - 00:25:17.420
But that's really. Yeah, I could.
I bet, I bet Chris was all upset because he's like, oh, no, definitely there'd be more language drift than the Atlantic versus the Atlantic in 5,000 years.
Speaker C
00:25:17.500 - 00:25:27.050
That was one of the things. Yeah, it was also the. Yeah, the language drift. The. The fact that some of those things were still usable.
Speaker D
00:25:27.450 - 00:25:28.650
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:25:28.650 - 00:25:40.010
I think it gives the reader a reference point though, because you gotta remember this at the time, this is a pretty new concept. It wasn't a lot written about post apocalyptic stuff.
Speaker C
00:25:40.010 - 00:25:45.210
When this came out, I just, I. In my world, it's. It's only a thousand years in the future, so.
Speaker E
00:25:45.450 - 00:25:45.850
Right.
Speaker B
00:25:46.570 - 00:25:48.730
Dave, did you have anything else you wanted to add in?
Speaker D
00:25:48.730 - 00:26:39.350
Absolutely. You haven't quite mentioned the psionics, which I know we've alluded to before. The.
That he describes the psionics in the manner that he does made me really intrigued because you consider when this book was written, he's got a more sciency explanation of the psionic powers. They're not mystical, spiritual. The Great Spirit is giving me some insight. This is. I follow the mental pathways and.
And then I manipulate his mind by, you know, being on the same channel with him. And that was a relatively new concept at the time. It was only the 40s into the 60s that they developed their idea of how psychic powers might work.
They could prove that they were real. And before that it was all spiritualism and spirits from beyond and being in touch with feelings and stuff like that.
I definitely like the way that he pulled that in and definitely used a much more scientific explanation for psychic ability.
Speaker B
00:26:39.350 - 00:26:45.390
This book only comes out like two or three years before Leonard Nimoy is doing In Search of on tv.
Speaker D
00:26:46.110 - 00:26:46.590
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:26:46.590 - 00:26:48.110
And the Bravest Little Hobbit.
Speaker D
00:26:49.230 - 00:27:03.250
Yeah.
The scientific explanation for psychic powers really wasn't developed to like 1947 you know, when it really was published and started really discussing how it possibly could work biologically, chemically, physically, those sorts of things.
Speaker C
00:27:03.330 - 00:27:20.870
I'm going to echo Eric's. Because of Morse. I was thinking more the sentient bears. I really liked the.
Here's another distinct race of creatures we know about, but what happens if they're intelligent and. And how is their difference in their intelligence?
Speaker E
00:27:20.870 - 00:27:22.630
Yeah, they think differently than us.
Speaker C
00:27:22.710 - 00:27:41.950
Yes, they think differently, but they can communicate, which is great. There is this sort of deeper level that's like, oh, oh, this guy's like a lot smarter than I expected there. That.
That kind of discovery was so much fun and nature bound and irrespective, even
Speaker E
00:27:41.950 - 00:27:44.600
Clues is smarter than he thought he was.
Speaker C
00:27:45.000 - 00:27:53.120
Exactly, exactly. It starts out with us, my dumb Morse that I really enjoy. And now I'm happy, I'm respectful of him. And it's like, yeah, I can tell
Speaker E
00:27:53.120 - 00:27:53.960
it to keep watch.
Speaker C
00:27:54.040 - 00:28:01.080
Right. So he's a lot smarter than I've been giving credit for. I have to read my own prejudice on this guy. I like that.
Speaker E
00:28:01.160 - 00:28:12.220
And he does, you know, which is another thing in the book that you, you see him do. He does have some preconceived notions about things and he does change his mind about some stuff, which is there was
Speaker C
00:28:12.220 - 00:28:21.660
the allowance for character growth. There was allowance for growth as a person. And you walked along with them for that. I like that. I like that a lot.
Speaker B
00:28:21.660 - 00:28:24.220
And again, 1973.
Speaker D
00:28:24.380 - 00:28:24.780
Yeah.
Speaker C
00:28:24.780 - 00:28:25.060
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:28:25.060 - 00:28:29.580
I mean, plenty of books in 2025 that don't do that. Yeah, you know, great.
Speaker E
00:28:29.980 - 00:28:49.500
It was one of the reasons I really wanted us to read this and talk about it, because I read this as a kid. I think I was, oh, I don't know, 13 or 14 when I read it. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. And then these mental powers and this.
And that is right around the time I started playing D and D and I'm like, wow. Oh. And then I picked up Play Gamma World. Like, hey, this is like just like that book.
Speaker C
00:28:51.740 - 00:28:52.380
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E
00:28:52.380 - 00:29:11.370
But then, you know, over the years, I've always had a copy of it sitting on my shelves in my house and I occasionally give it to people to read and get it back. I was like, yeah, this would be a great book to talk about because it, it meant a lot to me.
It's this wild book and when it was written, there wasn't anything else like this. I didn't remember reading anything else like this for years. So.
Speaker C
00:29:11.370 - 00:29:17.010
Thanks, Scott, for recommending it. It's one of the books on the appendix end list that I hadn't read.
Speaker E
00:29:17.170 - 00:29:29.650
I will recommend you read the second book too. It's called the Unforsaken Hero and it's his continuation. Fighting the Unclean in the Teague and in the Palude in North America.
Speaker C
00:29:29.650 - 00:29:34.020
It is on my list. I've got like nine in front of
Speaker E
00:29:34.020 - 00:29:47.740
it though, so it's worth reading. I actually read them both. When I read this one again, I just read the second one as well.
And from what I understand, there is a possibility that his daughter is gonna publish the third. I don't know, I heard something like.
Speaker C
00:29:47.740 - 00:29:56.820
Yeah, I. When I did my research, it sounded like she was going to publish the third in like the 90s, so I'm not. I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope.
Speaker B
00:29:56.820 - 00:29:57.180
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:29:57.180 - 00:29:57.700
So maybe.
Speaker C
00:29:57.700 - 00:29:57.980
No.
Speaker E
00:29:57.980 - 00:29:59.340
But hey, you never know.
Speaker B
00:29:59.690 - 00:30:30.600
Obviously our first recommendation is going to be Read the second book. Do we have other recommendations, other media recommendations that if you wanted to get the same vibe as this book again.
Scott pointed out that at the time it was the first of what it was doing. But it has been.
There's been some time and there's been a lot of other books that I think can or do sound a little bit like this or sort of rhyme with it as it were. Dave, do you want to tell us about the books that you think might vibe with this book that would go along with it?
Speaker D
00:30:31.000 - 00:30:31.960
Media, you mean?
Speaker B
00:30:31.960 - 00:30:37.480
Yeah, media. Yeah. Not just books. Sorry, I tend to be pretty prejudiced, but I'll take any media.
Speaker D
00:30:37.640 - 00:30:53.080
Sure. Yeah. I don't have a book recommendation, but I'm going to say the name that we swore we would not say because it's true. It is absolutely true.
Zardoz is absolutely inspired by this sort of setting and, well, you know, the costume choices of Sean Connery are a little suspect. Respect.
Speaker C
00:30:53.080 - 00:30:54.880
Unimpeachable. Unimpeachable.
Speaker D
00:30:54.880 - 00:31:27.540
Unimpeachable, yes, unimpeachable. I did. I've seen that movie more than once and it's got nothing to do with the costume.
It's got everything to do with the vibe and the psychedelic mindscapes that he has to deal with and just the weird world that he's in. If you want to go another direction.
And certainly the 70s had lots of different movies and Barbarella was another one that was very retro future and, you know, had a post apocalypse feel to it as well. But that one keeps coming to my mind. You know, a lot of the other 70s movies were. Certainly had that same sort of feeling to it.
Speaker B
00:31:27.540 - 00:31:30.220
Agreed. Logan's Run definitely falls, right?
Speaker D
00:31:30.220 - 00:31:30.620
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:31:30.700 - 00:31:31.740
Right. In that possibility.
Speaker E
00:31:32.220 - 00:31:36.220
I mean, even newer, you could go with Hunger Games. Yeah.
Speaker B
00:31:36.460 - 00:31:38.300
Chris, did you want to go next?
Speaker C
00:31:38.620 - 00:32:21.430
Sure. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, for your animals, you got your Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
We talked about them a little bit earlier, but, you know, sentient animals. And as the comics and such go forward, there's more stuff in there.
For actual Vibe, I'd go the Witcher, the game, the TV show, the books, all of them sort of have that post apocalyptic running around. It's usually potions rather than psionic powers, but as I said before, it's sort of the same thing really there. It's low magic kind of stuff there.
Fallout, the game and the Amazon Show. And I came up with Sweet Tooth.
Speaker B
00:32:21.430 - 00:32:22.150
Oh, yeah.
Speaker C
00:32:22.790 - 00:32:27.510
For your animal hybrids. It's really kind of sweet. Oh, yeah.
Speaker E
00:32:27.510 - 00:32:28.870
That was a great show.
Speaker C
00:32:29.030 - 00:32:43.040
I enjoyed that. It's a little lighter post apocalyptic hybrid monsters, but, you know, some of them are very cute. Post apocalyptic hybrid monsters.
And, you know, obviously seconding Zardoz because, you know, it makes God upset.
Speaker D
00:32:43.040 - 00:32:43.440
Yeah.
Speaker E
00:32:45.040 - 00:32:46.880
Yes, it does. It really does.
Speaker B
00:32:47.200 - 00:32:47.840
Are you ready?
Speaker E
00:32:47.840 - 00:33:01.360
I'm gonna talk about movies because I have a name of a series in my head and I can't think of what it is. And I read it and it was. It was like really well done, but I don't remember anything about the name of it. Read so many books. You have to understand.
Speaker B
00:33:01.840 - 00:33:03.040
Okay, that's fine.
Speaker E
00:33:03.120 - 00:33:58.310
So I'll jump into, you know, Mad Max. I'll jump into all the post apocalyptic movies that we've seen. Even like the cheesy ones of the 80s. Like, you know, Hell Comes to Frogtown, you can.
There's so much post apocalyptic became a huge thing in the late 80s, early 90s. And, you know, a lot of the books that were written were not that good, but there were a few that were pretty good.
There's a series and it ties into actually the Gamma World books. There's a couple of Gamma World books.
And I can't remember the name of the book, but if you're a book reader and you know that they made just like they made tsr, made books for D and D and Forgotten Realms. They made some. A few books for Gamma World. And that series of books is actually really good.
There's a lot of similarities with human creatures that can speak in their heads and things like that.
Speaker C
00:33:59.670 - 00:34:01.990
How did I miss that? They did a Gamma World series.
Speaker E
00:34:02.390 - 00:34:11.590
They did. There was only a couple. There was only a couple. And I have one only right now.
My bookcases are buried behind a stack of convention stuff, so I can't get to them.
Speaker B
00:34:11.750 - 00:34:13.710
So can I take a shot at this?
Speaker E
00:34:13.710 - 00:34:14.350
Yeah, please.
Speaker B
00:34:14.350 - 00:34:21.270
Is it the Paul O. Williams Pell Bar cycle? The first book is the Breaking of North Wall.
Speaker C
00:34:21.270 - 00:34:21.750
All right.
Speaker E
00:34:22.880 - 00:34:23.680
I don't think so.
Speaker B
00:34:24.240 - 00:34:25.520
Okay. It was worth a try.
Speaker E
00:34:25.520 - 00:34:32.960
Yeah, that was definitely worth a shy. I'm gonna do a little quick search here and see if I can find the name of the book while you guys keep talking.
Speaker C
00:34:33.040 - 00:34:38.960
Because I mean, I. I Gourd the Rogue. So you know, that's the level of horrible DND stuff that I used to read.
Speaker E
00:34:38.960 - 00:34:40.240
But yeah, I read that.
Speaker C
00:34:41.280 - 00:34:44.400
I'd have been so. I've been so all over a Gamma World series.
Speaker B
00:34:44.720 - 00:34:47.080
I read Quag Keep, so I. I'll read anything.
Speaker E
00:34:47.080 - 00:34:56.879
Oh, I love Quacky. Oh yeah, yeah. I actually said that recently on a Facebook post.
They were talking about who wrote read the oldest gaming book and I was like, oh, wait a minute, I got you guys beat.
Speaker C
00:34:56.879 - 00:34:57.119
All right.
Speaker E
00:34:57.119 - 00:34:57.719
Quag Keep.
Speaker B
00:34:58.199 - 00:35:10.239
Yeah, no, we talked about that when we did the dungeon crawler, Carl, when we were talking about lit rpg, we were like, what's the oldest lit rpg? And I put forward that Quag Keep is the oldest lit rpg.
Speaker E
00:35:10.239 - 00:35:11.159
That might be true.
Speaker C
00:35:11.639 - 00:35:14.470
All right, I have read that. So I feel. I feel, feel old now.
Speaker B
00:35:14.470 - 00:35:16.190
Excellent. Fantastic.
Speaker C
00:35:16.190 - 00:35:18.590
I am the youngest of the old guys here, so.
Speaker B
00:35:18.670 - 00:35:19.870
And you're still old.
Speaker C
00:35:19.870 - 00:35:21.950
I'm still youngest of the old guys.
Speaker B
00:35:22.910 - 00:35:23.910
Total aside.
Speaker E
00:35:23.910 - 00:35:25.950
But do you guys remember the movie the Keep?
Speaker D
00:35:25.950 - 00:35:28.510
The Keep? Yeah. Oh yeah. That was a fantastic.
Speaker E
00:35:28.510 - 00:35:30.270
They made a module out of that.
Speaker D
00:35:30.270 - 00:35:30.910
Oh really?
Speaker E
00:35:31.230 - 00:35:36.310
A DND module? There was a DND module made out of the Keep. I used to have one and I sold it.
Speaker D
00:35:36.310 - 00:35:37.390
That was a great movie.
Speaker B
00:35:38.270 - 00:36:45.200
So I'm going to give a couple recommendations real quick. I'm going to start with books first off. Total classic canticle for Leibowitz. Got to put that out there. That's a perfect.
That's like straight out of your English classroom. Post apocalyptic kind of thing. Really great. For someone who has the strongest of sci fi pedigrees, I would recommend the Sharing Knife series.
The first book is called beguilement by Lois McMaster Bujold that has a wandering priestly knight kind of guy who rescues a young princess person in a post apocalyptic kind of world. So it is really dead on. That is great. For something a bit more modern and a little bit more on the sweet tooth.
Kind of cute, but still post apocalyptic. I would recommend Kipo and the Age of the Wonder Beasts on Netflix. That one is just a ton and a half of fun.
Oh, and I just wanted to throw in because Chris mentioned Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and we both agreed. I think we both agreed not to mention after the Bomb by Palladium. Yes, I think we, we.
Speaker C
00:36:45.200 - 00:36:47.120
We both were expecting the other one too.
Speaker B
00:36:47.200 - 00:36:55.920
Yeah. So, yeah, if you want to do Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles post apocalyptic, you should use the after the Bomb rpg.
I think that is definitely the way to go there.
Speaker C
00:36:56.240 - 00:36:57.400
A bit old school, but.
Speaker B
00:36:57.400 - 00:37:04.670
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little old school, but still a. A great deal of fun. So you found the book. Okay, great. We killed enough time.
Speaker E
00:37:04.990 - 00:37:15.230
So the book is Gamma World. It's called Sooner Dead by Mel Odom, and I believe he only wrote two books. I think it's worth reading. I had a fun time reading it.
Speaker B
00:37:15.230 - 00:37:22.070
All right, fantastic. So we got that in. Okay, if it wasn't completely plain, please watch every episode of Thunder the Barbarian.
Speaker D
00:37:22.070 - 00:37:23.230
Yes, oh, absolutely.
Speaker C
00:37:23.470 - 00:37:24.350
Just in general.
Speaker B
00:37:24.510 - 00:37:47.390
That's not just for this book, but just all the way through.
Okay, so now that we've done the recommendations and we've talked about the mechanics and the stuff that was portable, that brings us to the end of our time here, gentlemen. And that means it's time to say nice things about each other and the stuff that we're doing.
So I have a feeling I know what two of our members are going to talk about.
Speaker D
00:37:48.750 - 00:37:50.030
We're so predictable.
Speaker B
00:37:50.430 - 00:37:53.310
So let's just go with Chris first. Go ahead, Chris.
Speaker C
00:37:53.460 - 00:38:54.530
Oh, sure. Well, I am going to plug my wife's upcoming novel, which I'm hoping we're going to find a. A publisher for her. But she.
Her first chapter of the plague ship, which is a sci fi novel with a her 15 year old YA heroine, Lissa, who is a duct rat who lives in the ducts of a enormous spaceship which is involved in biowarfare, and she is what's known as a carrier of the plague.
So it is all sorts of angst and terrible choices where there's no good answer with trying to find a new home for both the immunes and the plague carriers being chased after by other ships. First chapter of that is On Embark, which is a literary journal for novelists. The October issue. October 2025, issue 23.
So read it and let me know if you like it, because I like it. I'm totally not biased at all.
Speaker B
00:38:54.610 - 00:38:55.570
Not even a little?
Speaker E
00:38:55.650 - 00:38:59.330
Not even a little bit. What's your wife's name so we can tell the listeners?
Speaker C
00:38:59.330 - 00:39:00.690
It is Denise Grannis.
Speaker B
00:39:00.770 - 00:39:01.650
Fantastic.
Speaker E
00:39:01.730 - 00:39:04.050
All right, so everybody look for Denise's new Book.
Speaker C
00:39:04.210 - 00:39:05.730
There'll be a link, I'm sure, Eric.
Speaker B
00:39:05.730 - 00:39:11.650
So yes, there will absolutely be a link. Okay, the other two gentlemen, I believe you guys are going to talk about the same thing.
Speaker E
00:39:11.650 - 00:39:12.770
Dave, you can go first.
Speaker D
00:39:12.930 - 00:39:35.340
We're plugging the same thing. We're both plugging the Rising Phoenix GameCube convention in April of 2026. They're going to be held at the Milford Hilton, Doubletree property.
It is a gaming con that last year brought in over 500 attendees. RPGs, board games, we run special events for kids tournaments. It's a great time. Scott, what did I miss?
Speaker E
00:39:35.580 - 00:40:29.740
Panels, please come this year, 24th to the 26th. Actually the 23rd Thursday night we have a soft opening. So if you come, then we can probably put you in a game too. TTE Tabletop events.
You can get your tickets. You can go to our website at www.risingphoenixgamecon.com, find all the good information.
There's a link there that they put in there so you can find yourself a hotel room, you can get yourself a badge, you can buy a really cool new merch. We have this year we got an awesome new T shirt. T shirt ties right into our special event. This year we're doing a tournament.
Do you guys Remember the old RPGA tournaments back from the 70s and early 80s? We are doing a shadow doc tournament where you will be rated as a player and we will give out great prizes at the end.
40 players are going to go up against the module that I am in the midst of writing right now on Friday night from 7 to 11. So you can jump in. There is a fee, but you get a copy of the module after you've played the game.
Speaker C
00:40:29.740 - 00:40:30.220
Wow.
Speaker E
00:40:30.220 - 00:41:07.580
The 20 bucks you pay the module is going to cost 25 at the merch booth. So you'll get basically the module for the cost. So please join us. Get ready for another amazing convention.
We have vendors, we have yoga in the morning so you can limber up before you sit down all day. We're going to have a tarot reader this year. We've got stuff for people that don't really like the game all the time.
So you could still come and hang out and have fun. Please think about joining us. Check us out online. We're a cross between a game con and a Ren faire.
We like props and I have some special new props this year. I'm not going to tell you what they are.
Speaker B
00:41:07.820 - 00:41:21.820
One of the other things that is happening at Rising Phoenix this year is that the Game Masters Book Club will be having not one, not two, but three author interviews while we are there. Scott, I can say the names of the guest stars, right? I can do that.
Speaker E
00:41:21.900 - 00:41:36.750
Yeah. I will say so. Our special guest this year, our Scott lynch and Elizabeth Baer.
So Scott lynch of Lies, of Locke, Lamora and Elizabeth Bear, Hugo Award winning writer of so Many Things.
Speaker B
00:41:37.070 - 00:41:37.870
So Many Things.
Speaker E
00:41:37.950 - 00:41:55.610
Very. Yeah, it's got a lot of books, but please come and join us.
They're going to be doing some panels, they're going to be doing some games, they're going to sign books or anything you bring. You could. They'll sign for you. Please come and meet them. They seem like wonderful people. We're going to have a blast.
Come join our community and have some fun.
Speaker C
00:41:55.690 - 00:42:02.650
Always recommend from me too. You'll even get a chance to play in one of my games, which is going to be some really goofy comedy games.
Speaker B
00:42:02.730 - 00:42:34.560
All right, Fantastic. And that was Hero's Journey by Sterling E. Lehner.
Thanks again to our absolutely not cloned game masters, Chris Grannis, David Clarkson and Scott Legault for their fantastic discussion of this innovative sci fi dystopian story. Meet up with Dave, Chris and Scott again when they return to discuss the high stakes fantasy heist novel Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo.
Tune in in two weeks when George Krubskj, Eric Driks and Marshall Smith jump across worlds to show us Genevieve Cogman's the Invisible Library.
Speaker A
00:42:34.640 - 00:43:26.980
You can find a complete transcript of today's discussion as well as links to all of our podcasts@k-squareproductions.com GMBC.
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Continued praise and thanks to John Corbett for the podcast artwork and Otis Galloway for our music. Later, gamers and to paraphrase the great Terry Pratchett, always try to be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.